Are you interested in angels, demons, spirit, ghost, monsters? Are you curious about the origin of talent and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, sit back, relax, and welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more. And as always, I am your host, JJ. Shining Quaila, Akamashti and Minuto Guzai Mus, or if you speak English, Happy New Year. Uh this I really hope that this coming year is going to be much, much better than the last two.
Um although with the way things are looking, that may not shape up from a uh public health standpoint, but we can only hope. Um I'm not going to give too much of a long introduction this time around because I really do want to focus on part two of Christy's amazing interview on uh Aramaic Incantation Bowls. Um it was a really good conversation. If you haven't checked out part one, I highly recommend it. Um, but this time we're actually getting more into the meat of the matter.
You know, part one was not only around some of the stumbling blocks that one can face when actually studying um any religious belief in more detail, uh, because more things come to light, which may have been glossed over in whatever Sunday school or uh you know early morning education that you may have received from said religion. And then the we actually started to delve more deeply uh into the uh incantation bowl themselves.
Uh and now we're actually she's going to give much more detailed information, especially some of the conundrums that one can face when dealing with Judaism and skull fragments. So I'm gonna leave it there. I will let her speak for herself. Uh, but anyway, uh thank you all very much for joining. Uh, if you'd like to support us, please go on to our Patreon uh page, patreon.com slash southern demonology, or uh join us on Discord. Um, all of those links can be found on uh southerndemonology.com. And just for a brief little instant to let you know, I have actually revived our Twitter account.
Not that there's a whole lot going out there, but if you're not on Facebook or if you don't um actually subscribe to our uh podcast RSS, then you can find all of the updates there about what's happening on the channel. And I have even started a very fledgling Instagram account. Um, still not really sure what I'm gonna do with that yet, but if you would like to, you know, be on the ground floor for when I do start doing stuff with it, please feel free. Uh, but anyway, uh thank you all for joining again, and let's get right on into the conversation with Christy.
And those are really interesting because especially if they're written in Jewish script, like you don't you don't mess with dead bodies, and like why why are why is a Jew writing on a skull? Like, you know, exactly.
And um in the Berlin Museum, um, a gentleman named Dan Levine that taught at Southampton for a long time um and is like an expert on this, um he went and looked at a number of bowls um or a number of uh these objects like in Berlin. I know I know that there are at least two skulls that are used the same way these bowls are. And in uh at Penn State, there are fragments of a skull that you really can't read anymore because care wasn't taken, you know, so it's it's all kinds of messed up and it was in fragments anyway.
But yeah, and so it's quite interesting like what what is to one make of this, right? Um and like the one that the bowl that got me into it um is what's called a curse bowl. Um because most the the vast majority, like 95% of these bowls are um are what are called like apotropaic or prophylactic or um for uh for guarding or for blessing or for you know good outcomes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um and and my bowl is a curse bowl but like not only that, but it's like like human die ball. Like it's it's bad, bad, bad.
Like wow like it is there's it's about some dude named Judah, and I don't know he I don't know who he pissed off, but he pissed off somebody really good. Um like like it's like uh you know like like your tongue swell up and like curse all your stars and planets because like you know, Zoroastrianism was still big in the area at the time as well. And so they took on like so much of this is like synchretism and like a melange of like the different uh beliefs around you and it didn't, you know, so it all kind of like melds together.
And um and also like when when one is attempting to get rid of an illness, um it'll say things like you know, all the demons and liliths named and unnamed, all the male demons, all the female demons, all the male Liliths, all the female Liliths, um, and Lilith with a with the lowercase L is a term in that area for a demon as well. But apparently there's differences in these kind of demons, but um but you're covering all your bases because names matter, right?
And so like and they'd cut they'd they'd call out um Bagdadna is a popular one to call out um they were um I believe like a Mesopotamian, like like king of the demons or something like that, like some big bad guy. And so like, you know, call out like yo, Bagdadana, and like you cut your shit off and you know, and tell your buddies to cut it off too, like, you know, so just like covering all the bases forever. Um, you know, um, so because if you don't know the name of the of the of the entity that's causing problems, like all right, fine. I'm just gonna call all y'all out.
And so I'm gonna get it somewhere, right? Like wherever you are, I'm gonna find you somewhere because I'm just gonna call all of them out. Um and so um yeah, and so like my bowl, my I said my bowl. Um mine is quite interesting because it it calls upon um like a god of death and like it calls upon like a this thing called a your roar demon, which apparently is like something that's like not cited very often and it's like a big scary, it's like like the destroyer or like the devastator or something, or like the destructor is like one of the epithets.
Um and so it calls out like Yoror and and Moat, like a god of death, and and all the spirits that reside in the cemetery, which is very interesting.
Um I haven't heard that one before now, but yeah, it's interesting.
Yeah, and like I like how like a lot of the lit the literature I read like will casually mention and like if you like like Wikipedia or something, like yeah, they were found in homes in here and some in cemeteries. No, we no we don't like no, that's kind of a big deal. Like you're being like because like there's in the I believe I believe in the Babylonian Talmud, and I could be mistaken, I've been wrong once or twice.
Um, but it talks about how like there are two ways to be a necromancer, and like one of them is calling the spirit of like the entity to you, and then one of them is like utilizing that spirit to do something for you. And so by by having this bowl or this, you know, or this item or whatever, like the skull, especially, right? Um, either in the cemetery or from the cemetery, in that way you are utilizing that uh that uh power. And you're not necessarily calling up that person, but you're still you're still taking that power. Um and that was part of my argument with like my thesis as well.
Um but I always found that very interesting because like the the and it's not something that I've seen referenced a lot, but like the idea with these like demons being bound is that you're binding their power. And like, well, why why can't you be binding it to use it for your own like yes, you're buying you're binding them, but you're not doing it to stop it, you're doing it to redirect their power in a way that you want it to be redirected.
Oh, yeah. In fact, you you find that same concept within uh these uh debtura scrolls, uh, which are made by uh you know uh Ethiopian Orthodox priests that belong to a certain sect of priests, and some of them sing in multiple voices, some of them are dedicated to creating these types of protection scrolls, but the scrolls very similar. So they use red and black ink, which is inherited from Zoroasteranism with their magical text.
Um, they call out every single demon they can think of, uh, from Shotalai, which is a substitute for Lilith with a small L, uh, which are a race of baby killing demons. Uh, you have Baya and Legawan, which are the two snakes that form up Ouroboros, uh, whole a whole slew of other entities in which they're kind of trying to protect against.
But the way that these scrolls are prepared is the priest will ritually sacrifice a goat, skin it, uh, take and and some eggs and some alcohol, put it onto a rock, lure a demon, because they're tempted by these objects, capture it within the seal of Solomon, and then imbue the scroll with the demon's power to funnel God's will. How fascinating.
It's it and honestly, I mean, this is all just for splash hearing this because I don't know much about the incantation bowls, but there's a crap ton of similarity there. And I don't know if it comes from you know, particular religion, mean particular practices intermixing, or if if a lot of this was just borrowed from the shared environment and kind of passed on, but it would be fascinating to actually dig in and figure that out.
Oh, yeah. No, I mean that's and that's and that's the thing too, like um like magical papyri and like amulets and stuff from around the same time are found in Israel. No bowls, but but written things, um, and like lead amulets or whatever that that are like longer, um, that have these same formulae that had these like the exact wording, the same exact wording. And we know that obviously, because that's around the time when the Babylonian and the Jerusalem Talmud were being written and being codified.
And so, like, we know for a fact that there was travel and and you know, uh discussion between these two groups. And so, like, no, I think that's absolutely fascinating.
Um well, even like uh, because you know, a lot of um a lot of uh uh Ethiopic practices were being followed along the Silk Road, and you have a lot of um uh a lot of different cultures kind of coming together. I mean, Arabic, modern Arabic actually borrows about 60 percent of its vocabulary from get ez. And you actually find like so one of the things that strolls often protected against is called Buddha, and yes, that comes directly from Buddha, uh, which is the evil eye. You in fact, you find the evil eye referenced even within like Turkish Islamic communities.
Uh the and the and the the bulls, the bowls also reference the evil eye, like it's a huge thing in like you know, quote unquote Middle Eastern cultures.
Oh, yeah, I mean it's like one of the biggest things to yeah, just that the Ethioptic just persecuted another, you know, religion in order to make their case for it. Right well, and anyway, not here or there.
No, that's but that's fascinating because like you know, like we you know, with the bowls with you know, like eggshells, for example, found inside of it, like what does that do? Like, because there's not an egg in it, it's just the eggshell, there's no dried egg, right? It's just the shells. Like, what are we doing here?
Um, and the other thing I was gonna ask you about is um so in you know, the the Essenes, the Dead Sea Scrolls, you have the the the teacher who you know is often making these proclamations, but they kind of believed that it was the corners that would allow a weak spot so that entities could flow into them. So I'm wondering if that also might be a reason why they would put the bowls in the corners, not just to define the room, but also to shore up the places where stuff could leak in.
I I don't know, like that that is exactly yes. Um, I'm I've uh what from what I've read, like that's exactly it. Like the corners are the weak spot for some, you know, for some reason. And so like if you don't find it's not uncommon to find them in all four corners. Um, but there will be at least if you find one in a house, it will be at a corner. Um and and more and more rarely it'll it will be, you know, where a bed would go. But that one almost like I would say 100% will have to do with um with protection during pregnancy or childbirth.
Um and so or it or someone that was chronically ill in some way, because it'll mention like it'll mention that you know these like attacks have been ongoing, and so that person obviously is bed bound in some way, um, and therefore can't move, and therefore, you know, that's where the demon gets, right? But um no, and it's fascinating that you mention that, yeah. Like I I they they're found in the corners.
Um and the stand from what I understand, again, like the I haven't kept up with the literature the last like three or four years, um, but it's my understanding that the general academic disposition is that one takes a bowl, one goes to the scribe, one says, I need protection against this thing. Scribe writes it out, sometimes describe is uh is uh illiterate, you can tell. Like they didn't, you know.
And so um actually, did you find any like forgeries that were just complete gibberish rather than funny, funny you should mention that.
Um so yes, there are some that that it's clear that the scribe was copying like copying the letters, the quote quote letters, but there's misspellings or whatever, and like so like it's obvious that they didn't know how to read or write, that they they could copy it. Um but inherent in the bowls as well is um is um what is like butchess magic or you know, or characters, and it's basically like rubbish words, like nothing gibberish. Like, you know, it's like I'm gonna call in you know the angel of you know Gabriel and Michael and like S K Y.
Well, it's got um which is the one um it's like I think it's like um shinyod shinyod or something, like it's it that's not a word, like it's S Y S Y. Like that's that's not like that's not a word, and that's not a person.
I mean, in almost every single like different pseudo pigry book or whatever text that you're dealing with, you'll have the four standard archangels, and then when they try to just make up random magical words for the last three because they're never agreed upon ever.
Yeah, like well, but in the but in the bowls, these nonsense words are repeated in different bowls, like and that's what I found interesting. And um, and I was speaking with a professor of mine one time, um, because sometimes so it'll be these like the nonsense words are repeated throughout these different bowls. So clearly they had like there was something going on for these same words to be repeated, in my opinion. Um but um but also um there'll be just a repetition of like a certain letter, like it'll be like um like like why, why, why, why, why, why why.
And like usually that like the Y is short for like um for the tetra uh tetragram tetragrammaton. Yeah, tetragrammaton.
That that one. Yeah, I tell me, I'd get tripped upon that one all the time.
The I just say the Yod He Babe, because that's just easier. Like just in my Hebrew class, I I said Yahweh one time and and my professor said, Don't don't say that. And I said, say what? Because I was just reading, I was just reading the sentence. He was like, No, you don't say that. We say Adonai or we say something else. You know, he's like, You you never say that the Yodhei Babe.
Well, they even allowed Adonai, because I've been in some places in which you can't even say that, you'd have to say like Adonai. Yeah.
Oh, how funny.
No, it was Adonai, and there's a couple other ones that oh I know, like most of the uh oh uh calohim instead of Elohim, but yeah.
Oh really? No, we could say Elohim, uh, but we couldn't say we couldn't say Yahweh. And he was like, Well, if you say it the you know, he's like, if you happen to say it the right way, then the world's gonna end. And this is probably about three years ago, so like right before, right before the plague. And I was like, Well, Professor Reeves, I mean, is that really such a bad thing? And he just looked at me and he was like, Keep reading, please.
Oh my gosh. Well, that's especially since you know that the tetragamaton is really supposed to be 72 letters, and we have lost what that means after the first temple was destroyed, supposedly. I I don't know. But I went to I went to Hebrew classes with a whole bunch of extremely religious um uh Jews, and they would not allow certain words because I got as a result, I got really like kind of cautious about what I call things.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean he he was he was he's so cool. Um his name is John Reeves, he didn't even see Charlotte. Um, and he's amazing, uh, absolutely amazing. Um, and he's brilliant. Um but um yeah, so there are these nonsense words and then these like repeated uh syllables um for seemingly no reason. And uh I was speaking with a professor friend of mine because the general thought is that you know you take it and you have the scribe break something and then you go home and you bury it and you're done.
But there are symbols that have been found now um that have been translated that mention a magician or the magician, and some of them even differentiate between the magician and the scribe. So those aren't necessarily the same thing. Um just like you don't necessarily just like you're not necessarily Jewish if you get an Aramaic bowl, or you're not necessarily Mendaian if you get a Mendaian bowl, and which I also find interesting.
Um but uh Yeah just goes to show there's a a marketplace for this stuff. I mean right.
Well, I mean, but Jews shouldn't be buying these bowls for uh you know from other people, right? Because right, and Jews especially shouldn't be, you know, using skulls for them either, right?
Um oh yeah. I mean, especially since I mean after the second temple, there I I think this is right, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there were no red heifers anymore, and a red heifer is necessary in order to create the ashes for the ritual of purification, and that's why the corpse touching how that was such a big no-no. Um, that was the only way to get rid of that contamination. We were just having a discussion on this in our Discord server uh the other day, and uh yeah, and that's now in an active role because there are no red heifers anymore.
Well, yeah, exactly. And like, and it's my understanding that like when there was a red heifer, like they keep they they because you only need a little bit of the ash, right? And um, and so like they keep the ashes around, like because they're they're so rare. Um, but I remember a few, I I see a few within the last like 10-ish, maybe 15 years, like there was a red heifer born in Israel and like everybody freaked out and was like, oh, now the temple's gonna get rebuilt and blah blah blah. Like, and of course, you know, that didn't really happen.
But yeah, but like but that just goes to show, like, you know, like the the defilement of the you know from the dead is a massive thing. And also like within Second Temple Judaism, it could spread. Like, so you don't you never let anybody die inside your house because they were all built like apartments and the the the um the uncleanliness or whatever like will travel through the wall and infect somebody else's house and travel, travel, travel because it's not stopped by those barriers. So if somebody's about to croak you, drag them out into the courtyard and let them die there.
So, like, cool, and then you have the people that are designated to come take care of the body, take care of it, and then they'll do their thing and be fine again.
Um especially amongst the priests, the Kohane, because they would they'd have to travel everywhere and they would touch everything, and it was very easy for them to become corpse contaminated as a result. Absolutely, absolutely, and so um so that's yeah, um but yeah, to find skulls, especially yeah amongst the Jewish tradition, is just yeah wild.
Yeah, I I saw. that and I was like hang on a second like hold on um and uh and so yeah so like my my theory for some time and you know it's easy to sort of cherry pick your you know what you read to be like I was right um so my theory for some time was like uh so that the idea is that you know nobody did any ritual nobody did anything they just like wrote the thing on the bowl and you went home and you buried it and that's fine and you died.
And uh Erica Hunter wrote um a scholar named Erica Hunter she teaches at um uh University College London and um and she she discussed in one of her articles that she wrote um that she believes that there was something to do with water like some kind of like a there was a ritual of some kind and there was something to do with water um because like they're all bowls like you can get lots of things but um and I forget she was she was talking about a specific formula that was used and I can't recall right now um but it necessitates like certain actions that one would take and like one of them involves like water and and you know general scholarship is like no because the ink would run off and whatever and she was like if the ink is dried because it it's not written on there and then fired in a kiln it's written afterward and so you know generally general scholarship was like no because the ink would run and whatever and she was like I don't see why the ink would have to run if you're unless you're like messing around in it and like mucking it up like there if you just poured some water in there and poured some water out then I don't see why that's a problem.
And my other professor um talking to to um Shimon Gibson who also runs um the Dig Mount Zion project and he was like you know he's like you might want to look into something like what if these like repeated words these nonsense words like see where they're repeated within these formula and he's like you know could they you know because Judaism is is is song right they had the candors and you know he was like in the Jewish ones at least like perhaps this is you know this is part of the ritual or part of a a you know they would sing this in some way or or or um recite something and like those nonsense words those letters are like are you know a marker like oh yeah stop and like do this other thing now and then go back to reading it and then stop and do this other thing now.
Oh that's and I was like yeah I was like oh man and so and like being in you know he's like you used to do music didn't you and I was like yeah and he was like yeah so why don't you look into that it might be interesting I was like don't mind if I do um I haven't gotten very far on it at all by by far I mean at all um I I know how that goes but yeah and so like and so I I I quite like that idea and like you know because you could just say I invoke all the angels named and unnamed right it's the same formula as you know I condemn all the demons named and unnamed or whatever um or I invoke you know this power that power because that that's that's the verbiage in the bowls like but um but that's not like that will be there but again those nonsense words or those letters will will be there like the the why you know yet like I said will be you know is usually understood as like short hand for Yahweh but these other things that are that are found in so many of the bowls like there's not really there's no explanation like like literally there's just a you know a footnote like this is gibberish we don't know what this is gibberish gibberish nothing I don't know like and so I find that quite interesting.
Um yeah and like and like I said like there hasn't been like recently there there has been um some decent work done on the iconography in the bowls um and that and that's like I said like that's what drew me to the specific bowl I was I uh I was looking at and I ultimately presented at um the American Academy of Religion in 2015 I think on uh James McGrath's panel who I also met on Reddit randomly when I was doing research for paper on Doctor Who and I was I was reading his I was reading his book on on Doctor Who at the time uh Doctor Who in religion and I was and I didn't know who he was and I was just like talking to him like a normal person and I found out who it was I was like oh god oh no oh no and he's like no it's cool they call me James I was like I'm so sorry I'm so sorry he's like no that's cool it's cool um that's amazing yeah like Reddit's Reddit's pretty cool man like accurate um that's how we met so right and so that I'm special by any means of the word oh whatever oh my god um but yeah and so um it's like my bowl was about like a figure in one of the bowls that again is a is a curse bowl and you know like super major like F you are you know F you and die and then die some more um but um my paper was about how it was uh it was similar to a figure in what what's called the John the Baptist cave um in the Cadewon Valley that Shimon and uh and James Tabor excavated in the late 90s early 2000s um which is like a whole different thing I've been working on this late paper about John the Baptist for about a million years.
But there's a number of of um engravings like on the wall inside the cave on the plaster. And uh and one of them is a figure that Shimon argues is John the Baptist and he wrote a book about it called The Cave of John the Baptist. And uh and so my argument was like okay like my guy in this bowl is close enough to the guy in the cave. And so if that's the case, what does that mean exactly? And you know unfortunately nobody really had any commentary on it. But um which is kind of what I was hoping for. You know and uh because I was sort of like just getting into the moles at that point.
Um but uh and nobody was doing any kind of work on the iconography really and so I might have a different reception now.
But um actually so I got one last question for you because we have ran over by a good no because it's just fascinating. I I couldn't stop even if I wanted to it was just too much good stuff. Um when I mean have you seen images of your bowl or the actual like physical object itself?
Yeah I've seen images of it. It's from so the fun the fun part about that is that it's from a private collection and um um show and shakhead um mention it um and I'll I can send you the links and stuff um if you want to put in the in the description or whatever or just for your own just for your own um amusement um but they mentioned that the bowl is from uh from a private collection and the collector said that it's supposed it supposedly comes from Bethany.
Uh yeah and then of course like Shul and Shaketa who are like the the big granddaddies of like this whole thing like they're the first ones to like really actually write on it in like you know the quote unquote modern era like 70s, 80s 90s.
And they're the ones that taught Dan Levine who taught um a guy named uh Bayro now that sort of is has taken the lead now that Levine's like pretty much retired basically um but uh but yeah and so they're like you know yeah that's what the collector said but um but we think that it's really you know there's no reason for us to believe that it's actually from Bethany. We you know there's nothing about it to lead us to believe it's from Bethany that differs from these other bowls in Mesopotamia. But I still thought that was quite interesting.
Um you know and like so like they're that X Files part of me that's like I want to believe um I mean because like he's so like he has like the same like pockmarked like tunic look like he has he has very similar like the way the head is drawn in a K like is very odd. To the point that some people still believe it's like a Roman centurion like um helmet and not not actually like uh a face as such.
But yeah and so I'm like okay and like that's where I got on the the whole like you know like maybe if we you know you're binding it not so it stops working but you're binding it so it does work but it works for you and not whatever it wants to do. Right. And so um and my art like my argument for a bit too um oh hell like I'll send you a link to the paper too if anybody's actually cares that much. I'm not that hard to track down so I'm not really worried about it. If somebody really wants to find me they're gonna find me and I'm not really concerned.
Um I've had scarier things but if you can turn the bowl against them I mean my God.
There you go there you go like I'd be like what's up um but yeah and um but in looking at images of these things have you ever felt like a chill go down your spine I'm just curious because I have held these scrolls and there is just something about them that just chills me to my bone and I don't know why I shouldn't be scared of a piece of paper but there's just something on some of these things and there are ones in which are just complete gibberish you can tell they're just completely made up they're false whatever but there are a few in which just looking at them nevertheless holding them is just an otherworldly experience.
I was just curious if you ever got any kind of similar vibes off of them.
Yeah I mean I I haven't had the opportunity to hold them um at the British museum you can request to go into the archives with someone and like look at them um you have to have certain credentials like depending on what you're trying to do or you have to have like letters of rec to do it because it's the British museum and um you know these things are kind of a big deal uh because British museum um but it was actually really cool like I'd been I had been there before to the the VM um but it was before I started my bowl thing and then after I started it the next time I went to London um we went to the museum and I didn't like I didn't specifically like look up where they were because I knew they were on display somewhere but like the first ones that you find are really unassuming uh when you're walking into like an area that looks like a library basically and they're kind of like down like on the left like kind of like at knee level for me.
And so I happened to look down and there is one of them because again like they're small they're they're really kind of easy to miss. And um and I happened to glance down and there was one that's like on like the cover of one of the books that I was using and it was on display and I was just like oh wow and I just stopped I was like oh my God and like whoever I was with was like what you know because like there's like a big suit of armor like next to it or something like what?
And I was like oh that and I was like no no no no no I was like that's a bull that's a bull that's a bull I'll tell you about and so like yeah I'm like that's the close I've gotten to like being like like you know like sort of chill or like you know that just like holding I was like oh my god they're real look that's a thing and I know what this is and I know what that's supposed to be like and also that like you know I have imposter you know just like anybody that's in academia um I have imposter to them like you know out the wazoo and so I was like I know a thing I know a thing it's amazing how a small object can excite you so much and I don't mean that in a sexual way um like I went uh I remember going to the uh to the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston and uh you know because we were you know intelligent that was where you had to go for a socially acceptable time out anyway it would normally be boring as ever live in hell however there was a small display case filled with old South Arabian seals and they're normally jewels in which they have all the letters carved into and I literally could sit there for like an hour and stare at these things because I'm like I can read that I can read some of that I can read some of that and it was just awesome and my friends will look at me like what the hell are you doing?
This is boring like well go then I'm happy doing this yeah we'll meet up later no like um when I finished my undergrad so I I I added on another like year or two to my undergrad because I wanted to to go to Chapel Hill and study under airmen and um and Chapel Hill like you know we have to be like uh more accomplished than I am anyway um and so um I took French because like they make they make like they require you to have a second language um whereas other schools are getting away from that but uh anyway so I took French so my my last semester of my undergrad was in t it was a full load it was four classes I was working like 50 hours a week at the friggin' Starbucks um because I needed health insurance and I was like taking all you know senior level you know first year grad student level French classes and so um so it was really fun like when we'd watch like like films like or like there's some there was some film that came out that was in French or something.
And so like I was watching it and I was like yeah the subtitles say that but actually what they really meant was this and this and this. And like I like stop it like well actually what they really said is this and there's more nuance to it and so we need to understand that. And like my boyfriend at the time was like and we we met in like a lower level French class and he's like okay that's cool. Can we watch a movie now?
And he was like I'm really proud of you I'm very very proud of you but um can we just watch a movie and like chill for a second yeah honestly that's why no one can watch anime with me because I'm sitting there watching it I'm like oh god I've I can say I've written like tons of articles in our Discord just about all the weird stuff that you find that no one's like everyone's like I don't care nobody exactly yeah me and me and my my my mother was the only one who cared about this like and she could just go I'm proud of you honey and like you have no even before she got my so my mom stroked yet about a decade ago and then it turned into Alzheimer's and yada yada and so that's what happened.
Um but yeah like so even before she got sick she'd be like I don't know what you said but it sounds real impressive I'm proud of you thank you mama thank you mama that I think that's honestly in most cases that's the only acceptable thing that you can yep like nobody knows about this nobody cares and so that's why I'm stoked that you asked me to come on because I'm like oh oh somebody besides me cares about this okay so this was so much fun uh we do have to bring this episode to a close I may actually have to divide it into two oh but we are if you are open for it um we're going to bring you on because I know that you've also done a ton of work on John the Baptist which you know you've alluded to but uh I would love to get some more information on that because especially you know any man you know Mendean kind of references or associations and Dead Sea Scrolls references as well.
Ah see they let's talk about let's talk about the copper scroll because oh love the copper scroll it's such good stuff uh dead sea scroll is bringing that back in for a little bit but anyway thank you so much for your time this was awesome uh I I hope everyone got to learn uh and especially I will cut say this just before we go um you know I have always heard of these bowls as described as water bowls and so to find out I mean just to hear that a lot of people were saying oh yeah you don't really use water especially when water is the ultimate sign of chaos it just kind of blew my mind um so anyway that that's you know one of the things that I found so fascinating but I got to learn a lot thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge it was absolutely awesome and your phenomenal personality uh way the hell funnier than I ever hoped to be but anyway you're awesome no no like now you're really gonna like make my ego go out of control no you're this is the last I don't I don't say I don't blow sunshine up people's asses for no big reason so there's always a reason but anyway thank you again um and I hope you all enjoyed it um uh Christy is in our Discord so if you have any particular questions that came up from all of our very talks um please pop on say hi ask your questions away uh if there's enough we may just go ahead and create a specialized channel so that you can ask these things and uh she will be returning again if uh she hasn't gotten sick of hearing my voice already so thank you thank you thank you for listening to Southern Demonology find us online at southerndemonology.
com where you can find all of our social and podcasting links. Also if you have a moment please feel free to rate this podcast and leave any encouraging feedback that you may have. As always I am JJ and it has been a pleasure getting to talk to you today